Oct 03
As for me and my house we will not be taking the vaccine. How about you?
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As for me and my house we will not be taking the vaccine. How about you?
October 3rd, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Probably not… I typically don’t get the standard flu shot and I don’t fall into a high-risk group (http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/acip.htm).
A note about the video:
It’s old.
It starts off talking about whether a one-shot vaccine will be approved (it is) and the ticker mentions Obama’s healthcare speech “on Wednesday”, so that places the video at about a month old. I would be surprised to hear of any doctor not recommending the shot to someone in a high-risk group.
Here’s a recent Q&A on the vaccine with a professor:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/29/AR2009092902800.html
October 5th, 2009 at 9:51 am
Are you kidding? In God we trust!!
October 10th, 2009 at 12:18 am
You gotta be kidding
its a vaccine the government only approved it because it DOES GOOD
if you dont want to take it fine
possibly get swine flu, and also if you dont get it,
you could be carrying it
and pass it on to a high risk group
so just do society a favor and stop being lazy and get it
October 10th, 2009 at 7:53 am
I am not lazy. I don’t trust the government and I don’t see H1N1 as a severe problem.
October 12th, 2009 at 9:34 am
There isn’t any more reason to get the H1N1 flu shot over the regular flu shot. The only reason would be if you fall into a high-risk group.
Regarding safety of the vaccine, I don’t think that’s even debated at this point. Health officials have said that the H1N1 vaccine is so similar to the seasonal flu, that the two would have normally been merged. They are only two separate shots because there was not enough time to create a single vaccine. The vaccination was able to be created so quickly because it was so similar to the seasonal flu. The H1N1 shot is not any safer or more dangerous than the seasonal flu.
October 12th, 2009 at 9:36 am
Also (and I thought this was important enough to create a separate comment), let’s refrain from name calling on this blog, and let’s try to have a good, intelligent discussion.
When I comment, I try not to point fingers or use “you” language. Sometimes, of course, it’s necessary.
October 12th, 2009 at 9:47 am
@Dave check this out: http://gizmodo.com/5379561/homeland-security-may-use-wii-balance-boards-to-test-if-youre-nervous
Now that’s scary!
October 12th, 2009 at 10:45 am
Big Brother.
October 12th, 2009 at 10:47 am
“Also (and I thought this was important enough to create a separate comment), let’s refrain from name calling on this blog, and let’s try to have a good, intelligent discussion.
When I comment, I try not to point fingers or use “you” language. Sometimes, of course, it’s necessary.”
- Agreed
October 12th, 2009 at 11:06 am
“There isn’t any more reason to get the H1N1 flu shot over the regular flu shot. The only reason would be if you fall into a high-risk group.
Regarding safety of the vaccine, I don’t think that’s even debated at this point. Health officials have said that the H1N1 vaccine is so similar to the seasonal flu, that the two would have normally been merged. They are only two separate shots because there was not enough time to create a single vaccine. The vaccination was able to be created so quickly because it was so similar to the seasonal flu. The H1N1 shot is not any safer or more dangerous than the seasonal flu.”
That is not the same as what I have heard. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwdWdr_zE_o – She states we have never seen this strain before.
Here is a video that talks about the safety: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzZ8ma-1lPk
October 13th, 2009 at 10:37 am
The first interview (posted to YouTube in May) was conducted before the vaccine was even created or tested. Note that they spend a good part of the video saying that you may have 3 flu shots! Also, the flu evolves and the virus from earlier this year is not the same as the H1N1 virus today.
(from the 2nd video) The NVIC is not without criticism, but their intentions as a vaccination watchdog need to be respected. http://ow.ly/uafX
It seems they have conveniently ignored all health officials that say that the H1N1 strain is not that much different from the seasonal flu. Also, the video is 2 weeks old… http://ow.ly/uag4
Here are some quotes that back up my original statement:
“What I explain to people is every year the seasonal flu vaccine is made up of three different new strains of influenza that have been circulating in the world, and we didn’t have time to put this new H1N1 into this year’s seasonal flu. So now we’re rolling it out as separate shot. But it’s really no different from the seasonal flu vaccine.”
–Louise Rice, senior director of public health nursing, Cambridge Public Health Department http://ow.ly/uagH
“The H1N1 flu vaccine was developed and manufactured in the same way as the seasonal flu vaccine. The vaccine has gone through clinical trials and is approved by the FDA. Some people may have a mild reaction to the H1N1 flu vaccine, similar to mild reactions to the seasonal shots, and those should only last 1-2 days. You cannot get the flu from the flu shot, however, it takes your body 2 weeks after getting vaccinated to build protective antibodies- so you may be susceptible to the flu during that time.” http://ow.ly/uagL
(Dr. Casmiar Nwaigwe / Infectious Disease Specialist) “People are mistrustful of vaccines. One thing I can tell you is that there’s nothing different from what was used in making this vaccine compared to what was used in making seasonal influenza vaccine.” Every year, the seasonal flu emerges as a different strain than the year before, forcing pharmaceutical companies to develop a *new* type of seasonal flu shot. With that in mind, Dr. Nwaigwe says, it was easy this year for the manufacturers to use a similar process to fight the H1N1 strain. http://ow.ly/uagX
(Dr. Casmiar Nwaigwe / Infectious Disease Specialist) “There is something slightly different when you compare the H1N1 with what we get every season. Initially, when it came out, we started calling it the swine flu.” But viruses change, and Dr. Nwaigwe says the H1N1 virus today *actually* contains components of human, swine and avian influenzas…components that vaccine manufacturers have already targeted in previous flu cycles…makes it even more simple to target this year’s strain and likely that older patients *may* have some immunity to the virus on their own. http://ow.ly/uagX
(Dr. Casmiar Nwaigwe / Infectious Disease Specialist) “When you have these myths that this is some new vaccine that was rushed through the market, and we don’t know how it was made…that’s bogus.” The Associated Press reported this week that more than one-third of American parents don’t want their children to receive the H1N1 vaccination, despite national guidelines that place children and young adults from 6 months through 24 years of age as a top priority group for vaccination. http://ow.ly/uagX
October 14th, 2009 at 8:27 pm
It was caught by spam. I just accepted the one that was caught.
October 15th, 2009 at 9:20 am
Thanks Dave, you can delete my previous comment so I don’t repeat myself twice
Here’s another story from NPR on the safety of the H1N1 vaccination:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=113746160
A side note: it’s still not widely available here in NC. One of my co-workers is pregnant and was not offered the vaccination by her doctor (in fact she wasn’t even told where to go… I had to tell her. She has to go to the public health center).
October 15th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
Well my family just happens to be allergic to eggs so I guess can’t get it even if we wanted to.
Again the recommendations are coming from the government which I have a distrust for.
I also believe that actually getting the disease will allow our bodies to have a better immunity to it in the future verses a flu shot.
I don’t believe in getting the regular flu shot either so comparing it to that might doesn’t make me want it any more.
October 15th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
You have one quote saying that the vaccine was created with a similar process and another stating that it was the same way. Either way I am sure there are differences.
Don’t these vaccines also contain themerisol which contains mercury which isn’t healthy?
To me vaccinations in general are a very unnatural process to becoming “immune” to something. I would rather allow the disease to happen naturally and get better immunity from it in the future.
October 16th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
Yes, an egg allergy may prevent you from the shots. Your family doctor could do an allergy test to determine this for sure though.
The government is a huge umbrella, so I think it’s unfair to distrust everything connected with it. It’s also unfair to have the same level of distrust for two different government entities (e.g. I trust NASA a lot more than Geitner). It’s healthy to be skeptic though.
From what I’ve read, natural immunity to H1N1 is nearly impossible since it’s novel. High-risk groups face severe illness or death, especially if they have a pre-existing condition.
http://www.thekansan.com/news/x536352479/Axtell-doctor-worked-on-H1N1-study
Regarding the quotes, I can’t find the quote that said “similar”. I said “similar”. So, perhaps I misspoke? Either way, I can’t find any quotes that suggest it was a different process than developing the seasonal flu vaccine.
Regarding Thimerosal, you are correct, but they only contain trace amounts if any at all. Sometimes the FDA will even rule the vaccinations to be “preservative-free” because it has been diluted so much.
http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/vaccine_safety_qa.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/FLU/ABOUT/QA/thimerosal.htm
I agree with you that building up a natural immunity would be preferred, but I think that sometimes it’s impossible. Keep in mind that technology has evolved so much relatively recently (e.g. planes, trains, and automobiles!), and diseases can travel much faster. Native Americans and Mexicans suffered greatly from European diseases, and they had to have built up all sorts of immunities.
October 17th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
“The government is a huge umbrella, so I think it’s unfair to distrust everything connected with it. It’s also unfair to have the same level of distrust for two different government entities (e.g. I trust NASA a lot more than Geitner). It’s healthy to be skeptic though.”
- True. But I think even NASA doctors photos of mars so they look red.
The agenda of the government with the H1N1 virus might not be to harm us but it could very well be Obama scratching the backs of the pharmaceutical companies.
“From what I’ve read, natural immunity to H1N1 is nearly impossible since it’s novel. High-risk groups face severe illness or death, especially if they have a pre-existing condition.
http://www.thekansan.com/news/x536352479/Axtell-doctor-worked-on-H1N1-study”
- I meant you would get the immunity after getting the virus. You were the first to admit it wasn’t as severe as the regular flu which kills thousands per year.
Would you have taken the shot back in 1976? What has made the government more trustworthy or competent since then? Where they not claiming it was safe back then?
I can’t comment on the amount of mercury that can effect someone negatively. I will tell you this: my doctor asked if I got the flu shot every year I think it was in the context of trying to see if I possibly had too much Mercury in my system. It might build up if you get one every year.
October 17th, 2009 at 8:34 pm
@Andrew
I came across this article. Thought you might find it interesting. http://www.naturalnews.com/027258_vaccines_flu_vaccine.html
I would be curious of your response to some of his statements.
October 18th, 2009 at 8:14 pm
Well, you are correct, but all photos are digitally edited. We also learn a lot from using different types of spectroscopy imaging (e.g. infrared). It’s impossible to take a natural color photo. We can’t just send up a point-and-shoot camera because, well… space is kind of dark.
http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/hoagland/mars_colors.html
Yeah, but what if it kills you first? I think high-risk groups should get this shot, but other should put the regular seasonal flu shot as a higher priority if they’re planning on getting a shot at all (which I would say isn’t necessary unless you have other pre-existing conditions).
Probably not. I am a very skeptical person like you are, and if healthy people weren’t dying from it, then I wouldn’t be bothered.
I highly doubt the flu shot question was in the context of Mercury. You would get much larger doses of Mercury from eating fish. It all will eventually get out of your system, definitely by the time you would have gotten your next flu shot.
October 18th, 2009 at 9:05 pm
Well, I will start by questioning his credibility. He’s not a PhD, MD or RD and he makes rap videos:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/09/an_antivaccine_rap_by_a_rapping_health_r.php
Ok, now let’s fact check his information.
#1 False – a quick Google search turns up many studies that have been done, including published in the New England Journal of Medicine. There are also many double-blind studies with subjects with other diseases (e.g. HIV, CFS).
#2 False. See above.
#3 Plausible – though, as I stated before, there are only trace amounts of Thimerosal in modern flu shots. You’d get more mercury from eating fish (which you need for vitamin D, see #5).
#4 False. I’ve covered this before. The benefits outweigh the negatives and complications with vaccinations become more rare as we make advancements in science.
#5 Plausible – This is probably the best question he poses. But, doctors already check for vitamin D deficiency in blood tests. That is, of course, if Americans have health insurance and are visiting the doctor regularly. Deficiency is becoming more common because Americans spend more time indoors, in which case you should eat more fish or buy fish oil. There’s also a host of problems caused by vitamin D toxicity, so it’s best not to overload.
#6 False. As I stated before, there have been many epidemics that could have been prevented with modern science.
#7 False. It’s called the Recency Effect, a psychological ordering effect. We notice when others get the flu shot, so it’s more salient (i.e. visible) if they get the flu. Notice that the Health Ranger doesn’t provide any statistics with this one.
#8 False. – Because it was a mild flu season. Influenza evolves… that’s why we have a new H1N1 outbreak this year. The same virus hasn’t been around forever.
http://articles.latimes.com/2006/apr/20/science/sci-death20
#9-10 I have to sign up, and I have already don’t trust this guy with anything.
October 19th, 2009 at 8:44 am
LOL. I hadn’t see the rap video before.
Could you link a couple studies that you found to meet his criteria?
Do you have an idea of how much more mercury is in fish? Also they are two very different points of entry. The body might be able to more easily filter out mercury when it is ingested verses injected.
From what I have heard Vit D toxicity would take a long time to get since it is a fat soluble vitamin. I think they mentioned 1000 to 2000 IU being good for long term and short term up to 5000 IU is safe. But I don’t know the sources credibility.
October 19th, 2009 at 9:01 am
I didn’t know it was the complicated to take a photo in space.
“Yeah, but what if it kills you first? I think high-risk groups should get this shot, but other should put the regular seasonal flu shot as a higher priority if they’re planning on getting a shot at all (which I would say isn’t necessary unless you have other pre-existing conditions).”
- According to Wikipedia the older you get the less effective the vaccine is so the people that “need it” the most it won’t benefit as much.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_vaccine#Effectiveness_of_vaccine
“I highly doubt the flu shot question was in the context of Mercury. You would get much larger doses of Mercury from eating fish. It all will eventually get out of your system, definitely by the time you would have gotten your next flu shot.”
- I will ask her what her position is on the shot.
Thanks for your post Andrew. You make me think harder about my positions and who is trustworthy.
October 19th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
Thanks Dave. I’m thinking harder about my positions as well, and learning a bit (I actually didn’t know about the mercury in flu shots).
Sure. These are some recent ones from this year (I’m sure there are RCT–randomized control trials every year).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19796721?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19776407?ordinalpos=4&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19395948?ordinalpos=16&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
Also, the CDC has some citations, but they are of course government-funded:
http://www.cdc.gov/FLU/PROFESSIONALS/VACCINATION/effectivenessqa.htm
Good question. I had to look this up too. Tuna and swordfish have the highest Hg (Mercury) content. The FDA limit is 1ppm (parts per million) of Hg for fish.
A serving of albacore tuna has 238 mcg (micrograms) of Hg. http://www.purehealthmd.com/nutrition/healthy-eating/eating-well/fish-and-mercury.html
At most, a flu shot has 25 mcg of Hg.
http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/components-Influenza.htm
According to Wikipedia, ethylmercury (e.g. Thiomersal found in the flu shot) leaves the body much quicker than methylmercury (found in fish):
“Ethylmercury is a breakdown product of the antibacteriological agent ethylmercurithiosalicylate, which has been used as a topical antiseptic and a vaccine preservative (further discussed under Thiomersal below). Its characteristics have not been studied as extensively as those of methylmercury. It is cleared from the blood much more rapidly, with a half-life of 7 to 10 days, and it is metabolized much more quickly than methylmercury. It probably does not have methylmercury’s ability to cross the blood-brain barrier via a transporter, but instead relies on simple diffusion to enter the brain.[1]”
Yeah, I’m not sure about that either. Perhaps you should look into this more and do a quick post on here. I’ve always been very skeptical of the need for supplements, because of all the marketing strategies and new shops that have popped up in recent years. I try to eat fish at least once a week (usually halibut from Whole Foods).
That is true. But, seniors are not the only high-risk group. People with other illnesses that could prevent or complicate fighting off the flu need the shot, and of course pregnant women should always get vaccinated.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:08 pm
Here is my doctors reply when I asked why she asked me about the flu shot: “I don’t like flu shots- they have mercury in them, which is why I ask the question. I don’t think they work, and for some people they are very dangerous.”
October 21st, 2009 at 9:13 am
@Dave That’s very surprising to me.
The only possibly danger for a vaccinated person is GBS, as we discussed before. The incidence of that is estimated at 1 in a million.
There’s a good article in November’s wired about vaccines:
http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_waronscience
In the magazine, they summarize the myths about vaccines (which is really just derived from the article). Here are the myths (there are also short explanations but I will leave those out for now):
MYTH: Vaccines cause autism.
MYTH: Giving too many vaccines overwhelms a child’s immune system.
MYTH: Vaccines cause diabetes.
MYTH: Vaccines are no longer necessary, because the diseases are no longer a threat.
MYTH: Scientists are divided about the safety of vaccines.
MYTH: Aluminum in vaccines is just as toxic as Mercury.
Some quotes on thimerosal from the article:
The article also points out that not all vaccines are good:
October 28th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
Thank you Dave for providing this forum as I am learning more all the time. I appreciated Andrew’s links to the studies as I was looking for exactly that.
I read Mike Adam’s stuff and have posted it occasionally but have been considering discontinuing this practice due to reasons stated above. I also distrust Dr. Mercola due to the fact that he promotes that which he sells on his site. I’m taking massage therapy certification and have been shown how to use research databases and will most likely discontinue using non scientific sources for anything more than food for thought. That being said, I do not believe that vaccination is profitable at this time. I am opposed to all the trash that is in vaccines and believe that it violates my religion to pollute my body.
I acknowledge that there are quacks out there promoting disinformation but I also acknowledge that there are doctors and researchers who have questioned vaccination and its scientific efficacy/ safety for years. Hard to dismiss the accounts that these people are marginalized and their reputations are targeted for even questioning what others accept as fact without requiring scientific proof.
One criticism I have of the CDC/ government is that they don’t provide a balanced view in my opinion. Those fact sheets they pass out at the doc’s offices don’t mention that people HAVE died (albeit rarely) from vaccination. I understand they don’t want to scare people but to withhold information fosters distrust. I tried to talk to my son’s pedi about why I was refusing vaccination and she rudely attempted to silence my questions. These types of people do nothing to help their cause.
Why don’t they hand out the package insert information when they give or attempt to sell you on the shots? If they did I believe that more people would refuse them.
I don’t feed my children food that I don’t read the label on for goodness sake why would I allow something to be injected into them without knowing ahead of time exactly what was in it? Not a vaccine but incidentally the insert for the Vitamin K shot listed death as a side effect. You can be we chose not to do that one.
And it seems crazy to me that the government buys vaccines/ pays Big Pharma. I think that the government should stay out of the business of vaccines. I don’t think it is right that my tax dollars are spent purchasing vaccines.
Anyone able to find anything more on this note: http://www.theflucase.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1428%3Acdc-states-h1n1-vaccine-may-maim-and-kill-30000-americans-fda-requires-minimal-efficacy&catid=41%3Ahighlighted-news&Itemid=105&lang=en
October 28th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
@angelique
Well, either the government pays a third-party or they do it in-house. Either way, people will complain.
The fact is, we NEED vaccines or a lot of people WILL die because viruses will spread. Not many people die because of the vaccines themselves (1 in a million). I see your point for putting that stat on the fact sheet, but I also see the other side that would say that this would scare people away from vaccinations and kill more people.
October 28th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
And another note:
The government’s job is the protect the people. That is why we have organizations like the FDA, FAA, FCC, military, etc.
More people die from influenza than from terrorism.
October 29th, 2009 at 10:16 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1K74Tnrrok&feature=popt00us16
I haven’t and do not plan to start taking these vac’s because… check this video out.
October 29th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
@Billie @angelique
I encourage you both to read my previous comments and Wired’s article this month, “An Epidemic of Fear: How Panicked Parents Skipping Shots Endangers Us All”.
http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_waronscience
I listened to an interview with the author (Amy Wallace) on NPR last night, and she said she does not regret anything in the article. The one complaint she receives is from people with autism, who do not like the fact that people react as if they have a deadly disease or something. In reality, they are healthy human beings and do not blame vaccinations for their autism (there is NO correlation if you look at the data).
Amy also made a strong point that doctors do not want to waste their time arguing the case for vaccinations because they already busy enough. Doctors also fear personal attacks rather than constructive debate.
Amy expressed her opinion (which is also mine) that vaccines have dramatically reduced diseases in the 20th century (e.g. smallpox, diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus, polio, measles, mumps, rubella, influenza) and there is absolutely no science that suggests they are doing more harm than good. Abandoning them completely is ridiculous.
That said, I’m not in a rush for the flu shots since I’m not in any high-risk groups. I may not even get the seasonal flu shot. But, since I have been traveling more than usual, I probably will this year. If I had kids, I would definitely get them vaccinated since they have a greater risk of contracting a virus and have (potentially) weaker immune systems. And, if I somehow get the flu, I will stay home and avoid human contact.
Even if one doesn’t subscribe to the categorical imperative, one should recognize that the benefits of (*most) vaccinations outweigh the risks.
Thanks for reading.
January 5th, 2010 at 8:50 pm
I took the H1N1 shot,and so did my child.We have’nt had any problem with it,we also take the seasonal flu shot every year.I’d rather be safe than sorry.If the government was going to do something to ppl through the vaccination program,they would of started manipulating the shots when the program started yrs ago.Everybody has had shots-shots that were mandatory to go to school or travel the world.So why worry now?Go get the shot,be safe and healthy,protect yourself and others : )
January 31st, 2010 at 2:06 pm
@Crystal – but how do you know that you are not creating long term problems? How do you know the preservatives like mercury in the vaccine are not building up in your system?